SA taxpayers fund PA to the tune of up to R10m a year
Mon, 10/31/2011 - 20:26
OUR TAXES FUND PA & HAMAS
MyShtetl Exclusive
The SA Department of Foreign Affairs (up to 2009) and the renamed Department of International Relations and Co-operation (from 2010) have been making massive annual contributions of SA taxpayers’ money to assist Palestinian causes. So said the Minister of International Relations and Cooperation on 6 August 2010 in answer to a parliamentary question posed by DA MP S Mokalapa.
And there the information died – in the files of Parliament – until a Shtetler tipped off MyShtetl to this last week.
As MyShtetl’s investigation dug up and anlysed the information, we were overwhelmed by the scale of the distribution this distribution of hard-working taxpayers’ funds – including Jewish taxpayers of course.
As we sought further information, we found that all Jewish Organisations we raised the matter with were also unaware of these goings-on. The Israeli Embassy, too, had to take a day to absorb this information before issuing a very diplomatic ‘no comment.’
So where has all this money been going? (See table on SLIDE #2 below story)
Essentially, the Minister’s reply indicated that there were three basic areas of support for the Palestinians:
To see the original DA Parliamentary question and the Minister’s answers simply
CLICK HERE AND GO DOWN TO QUESTION NO. 2061 RIGHT NEAR THE BOTTOM
Firstly, contributions are made to the United Nations Regional Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees (UNRWA) “to support relief efforts for Palestinian Refugees” said the Minister. This, together with a special “Emergency Relief” payment after operation Cast Lead had cost SA taxpayers R6.2 million over the past five years. There may have been funding to this account prior to the accounting that the Minister was asked for, as is the case with the next item.
Secondly, there is the funding of the Palestinian Ambassador and Embassy in Pretoria – a practice that begun in 1994/95 said the Minister. But she had only been asked to provide figures for the past six years. Over the years 2006/07 to 2011/12 (current financial year) SA taxpayers have funded the Ambassador and Embassy to the tune of 7.4 million.
The third leg of the previously unknown funding of the Palestinians is the most recently-introduced and by far the largest use of SA taxpayer money.
SA granted an amount of US$1 million (R7.8-m) per year for three years to assist in Capacity Building - to build skills and institutions in Palestine. These grants were for financial years 2009/1- through to the current year. In the first year, said the Minister, an additional R1.4 million was allocated for the training of Palestinian diplomats.
The cost to SA taxpayers of this Capacity Building assistance? A whopping R34.8 million over the past three years!
TUESDAY'S STORY
SA Jewry & other taxpayers gave a whopping R38.4m over past 4 years to support Palestinian ambassador in SA & in foreign aid assistance to Palestine. This support goes back as far as ’95 & seems set to continue into the future.
None of the many communal leaders of SA Jewry and local Jewish organisations that MyShtetl has spoken to since Friday had any idea that SA taxpayers were footing Palestinian bills. And that includes Jewish taxpayers as well!
Jewish organisations were shocked to find out that the total amount the South African taxpayer has contributed to the Palestinian cause since 1995 has been in the region of R50 million.
The information comes from the public record after an answer by the Minister of International Relations and Cooperation on 6 August 2010 to DA MP S Mokalapa – who had posed the following question:
(1) Whether any aid was (a) offered and/or (b) provided in the past five years to countries in which South Africa has an Embassy; if not; why not; if so, in each case, (i) what was the (aa) nature, (bb) reason for offering or providing of the aid and (cc) value of the aid and (ii) from which budget were these funds sourced.
The shocking answers, which in most cases cover just four years, amounted to a whopping R38.4 million and covers three projects - supporting the Palestinian ambassador in SA, foreign assistance to the UN in Gaza and foreign aid assistance to the Palestinian government to be used towards the cost of building institutions.
3 Judges sitting for 2 years has a budget of R40m
Surely our taxes should feed SA’s hungry, shelter
our homeless, improve healthcare and schooling?
Up to 2009 the funds were provided by the then-Department of Foreign Affairs (DFA) and that from 2010 the funding came from the newly-named Department of International Relations and Co-operation (DIRCO).
MyShtetl is digging up more on this story - so stay tuned. While we await answers from many sources, we have found the figures in the public domain and we have decided to publish this prematurely due to the public interest and then fill in the gaps as we speak to leaders and politicians.
"I simply refuse to believe that our own Jewish community’s taxes would have been spent in this way,” a said senior communal leader (who asked not to be named) and was in complete denial as this would have harkened back to the Mandela Presidency. “It would have been insensitive and distasteful to the extreme."
Watch this space...
I see nothing wrong with
The Embassy of Palestine has established good relations with several Jewish institutions including the SAJBD and SAUJS.
When Palestine is a fully independent State with its own economy and so on then it will have to support its own embassies until then one can not expect the host country - in this case South Africa - not to support it financially! Especially bearing in mind the important role the PLO played in assisting anti-Apartheid activities, it would be unimaginable for the ANC government to do otherwise!
I'm sure other shtetlers will say otherwise though, unfortunately!
Pray tell Ilan, exactly what
I am afraid that if you are an example of the ignorrance in our Jewish youth, then I quake for our community. Obviously the current and popular mind-set has penetrated your cranium and I suggest you do a lot more reading and studying on the subject and do not rely on your emotional weakness to create facts in your mind.
I suggest you speak to people who were around at the time and read more real history books.
No, Ilan, it is a highly questionable state for South Africa to financially support the Palestinian Embassy and fund all its expenses.
As for the SAJBD and SAUJS, the same applies to all of them and I would like confirmation from the SAJBD that ythis is in fact so and if so, I would ...[Sorry Sam - you are rabble-rousing and we've edited this as not being in the community's best interest -ED].
Fund bombs and rockets is
But, of course, each of us is entitled to have a differing view of this.
Important points you've
Solomons, Just two weeks ago
Just two weeks ago I stood in Sderot holding what remained of a missile launched from your "occupation and siege"ed land called Palestine...
The rocket landed in a civilian area...
and this is only 1 of over 8000 rockets fired from Gaza into Sderot over the past few years.
and you still want to defend the funding of these terrorists while little jewish Israeli children can barely play in the park without having to run to the bomb shelter which had to be made for them in a park ( a place of fun and relazation... not terrifying sirens).
I am very sorry (not really) but these Jewish children, homes and families were not involved in Apartheid.
furthermore Israel was one of the only countries who actually did help south africa during those dark years.
Its easy for you to speak from your neighborhood protected by GAP etc... but lets see how keen you are to live there if missiles started falling in your backyard from Houghton. you still gonna pay GAP to protect Houghton as well?
I attended a talk by David
Is the current leadership of the Board of Deputies and SAZF asleep as usual? I find it ingenuous that they deny any knowledge of South Africa fully funding the Palestinian Ambassador and Embassy. What, if anything, are they going to do about it? Can they do anything about it? Do they want to do anything about it? Have they the courage to do anything about it? Kol hakvod to MyShtetl for telling us about this.
Assuming they cannot do anything about it other than register their unhappiness and discontent with the government, surely it is a good weapon to bring to people's attention regularly.
I am sad to say that I have no faith in our current communal leadership. I really wish we had people there who had knowledge, had courage and knew right from wrong and could stand up for Israel and our community. Oy weis mere!
Yet another reason (along
Sam it is well known and
Anthony/MyShtetl the issue of funding humanitarian projects in the Palestinian territories is surely a nobel thing. Unless you are implying and have concrete proof that SA is funding militias like Hamas and Islamic Jihads armed wings, that's a whole other matter which needs to be looked into, regardless of the amount!
So where exactly do you
What about the wanton murders and maiming of innocent worshipers in the St James Church in Kenilworth, Cape Town when armed Apla members burst into a Sunday evening service, began shooting their automatic machine guns into the congregation and also throwing hand grenades into the church amongst the worshipers? (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_James_Church_massacre)
Then there are the bombs in Magoo's Bar in Durban and the Heidelberg Tavern in Cape Town.
All of these atrocities are akin to what the PLO and its various offshoots have perpetrated in Israel and still try to perpetrate. All deliberate and without motive or provocation and uncalled-for with the usual scant and empty justifications.
What do you and your fellow students, filled with the infantile milk of human kindness, abysmal ignorance, no experience and faulty morality really know?
Do you still see nothing wrong in the South African government totally funding the Palestinian Embassy? The Arabs have murdered your fellow Jews for more than a century and the PLO has blood all over its hands, feet and face.
Your parents and the rest of the South African Jewish community are indirectly through their taxes funding the enemies of Israel and have no say in it. Do you think that we, as South African citizens should have no say in what the ANC government are doing with our money? You support this?
I quote your immature final statement in your original remarks: "I'm sure other shtetlers will say otherwise though, unfortunately!" Yes, we certainly say otherwise and what exactly do you mean by "unfortunately", you silly ignorant boy?
Sam, undoubtedly the ANC,PAC
I obviously feel deep sadness and loss for the shedding of Jewish blood by Palestinian militias including by the likes of the PLO and its affiliates and other Palestinian militia groupings.
I believe also strongly in a just and lasting peace between Israel and Palestine, living side by side with a shared capital in Jerusalem! I view it important for SA to support these efforts but ensuring Palestine as diplomatic,economic and political representation in SA, like its Israeli counterparts.
If Palestine were a fully independent State with its own economy like other states then you would have a very valid point as to why our taxes are going to support the up keep of a Palestinian Embassy and other projects in Palestine.
Let's just hope that soon they will have their own independent state so our tax revenues can go to other good and just causes!
Goodness me Ilan, you really
What do you really know about Deir Yassin except the propaganda our enemies have obviously fed you and you have swallowed hook, line and sinker? Do you even know where it is? I recommend you look at this one bit of evidence: http://maurice-ostroff.tripod.com/deir_yassin.html and then do some real home work reading widely and not just the Arab propaganda. There was no massacre at Deir Yassin.
A friend and I will later this month in Cape Town be delivering a talk and comparison on “The alleged massacre at Deir Yassin and the real massacre at Kfar Etzion”. I have been to both places and investigated them thoroughly and you are way off the mark. Do some serious reading and study.
I won't engage you as you look for equivalence and go into a whole diatribe of the nonsense you write, but whilst freedom fighting is one thing, targeting civilians is another.
I know the Jewish family from Wellington referred to in Sam’s response to you. I was at university with the daughter and saw how the tragedy decimated the family and destroyed the wife, her mother, who I used to see in Sea Point. Multiply that a few thousand times to even get an inkling of what has happened in Israel and please don’t wet your computer keyboard with crocodile tears.
I note in your first contribution you state “Palestine is an entity under Occupation and Siege!” Well, that is a matter of law, fact and opinion and I reject your view in its entirety. There is no need whatsoever to ingratiate yourself to our enemies and show what a reasonable and good boy you are. Get real and acquire some courage!
The rest of what you write I also find immature and wishy-washy. A shared Jerusalem as far as I am concerned is not on the cards nor should ever be. Historically the Arabs and the Muslims never regarded Jerusalem as a capital. When they controlled the area, which was not for very long, Ramla near Ben Gurion Airport was their capital. The Arabs claiming Jerusalem is inventive nonsense. Ramallah is a stone’s throw from the north of Jerusalem down Route 443 and together with our invention of the “Law of return”, which they then corrupted and hijacked, they covet Jerusalem, and the rest of Israel, and in reality are bankrupt for ideas, reality and what is really just.
Every one of us would like to see peace in Israel. Your description in my view is the usual idealistic, quixotic and shallow claptrap rolled out by the uninformed and romantically inclined ignoramuses.
The trouble with your generation, which has not experienced not having an Israel, a land of our own, not having the right to live in our biblical homeland, is how spoilt and indulged you are and how removed from reality you really are. Your heads are filled with romantic straw with no real knowledge and definitely no experience. Sixty three years ago there was no Israel and your people had been decimated in the holocaust. We had been in exile from our land for two thousand years. You have no idea of what it took to get Israel, to fight for it, defend it and be at war for the entire period of its modern existence. You have no idea of the pain and sorrow, the losses of family and loved ones. You have never experienced anti-Semitism. You have no concept of the constant existential threat to Israel and your own people.
It is only sixty three years since Israel’s reestablishment and resurrection after two thousand years of exile and your generation take it for granted and wonder around and arrogance and abysmal ignorance. Shame on you all and shame on you for your shallow take on all of this.
Empower yourself with real knowledge. You will find it fulfilling, thrilling, really useful and worthwhile, but for all our sakes, disabuse yourself from the romantic nonsense you sprout.
As for South Africa funding the Palestinian embassy, their Ambassador, the Palestinian Authority, Hamas and Fatah with my tax money, I have no idea what I can do about it, but I have the democratic right to voice my objection and I certainly will.
Ilan, are you aware that the
“Palestine” is not a country, so ask yourself how it can have embassies around the world and question the madness of this?
The Arab states, dripping in oil revenues, contribute less than 20% of the money gobbled up by the PA. How much of this goes to buy arms to use against Israel? How much of this has actually gone to their so-called “refugees” who remain exactly that after 63 years and who the PA clearly states will never be citizens of Palestine as they want them to be absorbed by Israel. Has the madness of this, including the fact that they have stated that a Palestinian state will be Judenrein, not bothered you or pricked your sense of what is right and wrong?
What does it mean to “believe also strongly in a just and lasting peace between Israel and Palestine”? Does this blot out all common sense?
Look at the rest of what you right where you claim a similarity between Israel and the PA. I quote: “I view it important for SA to support these efforts but ensuring Palestine as diplomatic, economic and political representation in SA, like its Israeli counterparts”. Apart from bad English, what are you talking about and how do you see and entity such as the PA in Judea and Samaria, the West Bank, and a legitimate and recognised state such as Israel? In your logic, the PA is equivalent not only to Israel, but also to the USA, Britain, France, Russia and every other legitimate country in the world. What nonsense!
As for the rest about Palestine being “a fully independent State with its own economy like other states”, what complete balderdash! It is thanks to Israel and the Netanyahu government’s policies that they have an economy that is growing by at least 7% plus a year. However, they will not have a viable economy for many years, if ever, should they ever gain independence.
Let me tell you why I take the trouble to answer you at length. It is because you need to be informed correctly, which you are not. I have seen your name and assume you are involved in SAUJS at university and what worries me is that if you are not corrected, you will spread your superficial nonsense that aids and abets the enemies of your people and buys into their propaganda, that harms Israel and your people.
Illan, please explain to us
Then Illan,maybe you will stop trying to be controversial, in order to impress yourself, after that you can go and live in Ashdot for a while.
Hopefully then you will have grown and wised up, think you still need to learn to rather keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool rather than to have opened it and removed all doubt.
Reading all the comments in
Shtetlers are getting off
Those people give a broad enough spectrum into the history. I will leave the debate over the 'true' history to the experts.
Getting back to the original topic, is the question of whether on thinks it is a legitimate cause for SA Tax payers to contribute to the maintenance of the Palestinian Embassy and other humanitarian causes in the Palestinian Territories.
I believe that it is and I have made my reasons abundantly clear already. I tend to think some people oppose this not out of shock at how the government is spending SA Taxes but because the beneficiaries are Palestinians, which is just plain bigoted!
I have no doubt that SA has a similar arrangement with the Western Saharns, which is also an Occupied Territory and which also has an Embassy in Pretoria. I doubt we would voice even remotely the same level of outrage if findings had to emerge that SA is spending similar resources on Western Saharan mission to SA!
Be that as it may, people are entitled and must be encourage to CONSTRUCTIVELY voice their views on the matter.
That's my last thoughts on this matter. Take care guys :-)
Ilan - you have been so busy
Evey 1 exept for this one. Here the country is referred to as "Middle East" - not even Palastine. There is no Western Sahara. There is a Middle East. This is not so much about SA taxpayers helping out some who are less fortunite (because there ar those with less).
To e its more about 1.) "MIddle east" is not a country 2.) SA Jewish taxpayers contribute above their weight and its insensitive 3.) If Palestine was a caountry and was sending rockets at civilians and women and children as human bombs - there would be no justification for financial suppot
Ilan, I can't wait for you
Only recently has Benny Morris changed his views. See what maturity and less self-interest can do for one. Try reading his latest book, 1948.
It is noted how people have answered what you wrote and how you avoid doing the same. If you have now retreated from posting any more silly replies, Baruch Hashem! And thank you.
And once more on the original topic, when you start paying taxes, lets see how much you like doing so within a kleptocracy and funding people who kill and have killed thousands of our people and whose agenda is to continue doing so and threaten the existence of the only country we have and have had in two thousand years. The spread of their lies across the world endangers us everywhere, including the hallowed halls and walks of Wits, where you spread your infantile and shallow heartfelt nonsense.
Ilan Solomon - Firstly you
ordinary people in Ashkelon where my family lives and tell them what you have lectured to the readers in My Shtetl. My grand daughter is a ballet dancer but is now a proud tall soldier in the IDF. I am so proud of her and every single soldier in the IDF that your mumbling nothings in your "intellectual lectures" to us here in the shtetl leave me with nothing but disdain for you and your friends. What have you ever done yourself that means anything for Israel??? I would really love to know.
Dear Miriam, You are more
You are more than welcome to ask Anthony about my contribution to Jewish communal matters and to fighting anti-Israel sentiment on university campuses and off them. I have no need to give you my Jewish and Zionist credentials which are well known to many in the community.
If Anthony wants to provide you with some of my credentials so be it, buy I certainly am not going to waste my time doing so.
All the best send my regards to Choni.:-)
Ilan who?
I have been thinking about
However, the question is essentially, is your "contribution" good for the community or for Israel? If we have to apply an analogy, some really bad people in history, which I am not implying you are, can also claim to have made a "contribution" to their societies and communities. In other words, your claim is complete twaddle.
I suspect you are a product of the recent decade of Habonim and the former maskirim (leaders) that now show up as anti-Israel and side with our enemies in the likes of the ever despicable Open Shuhada Street. Not only are you all a product of a misguided and infiltrated youth movement, but the also the product of a weak and gutless leadership of the SAZF.
Other commentators have referred to your lack of maturity and I will join them in hoping that time, common sense, logic, intelligence and maturity will find you and that you will go on to truly be a real contributer to the Jewish community and certainly not in the mode you now find yourself. Politely put, this means acquire some [Ilan will have to use his imagination here, Taryn -ED] and grow up!
"Habonim"? - Are you
- Are you referring to the Habostinians, those poor little rich kids who go park their asses down by the waterside at Onrust once a year and talk Deep Philosophy about tikun olam, singing Kumbaya around campfires, and going home to wherever the hell they came from and eventually end up marrying some goy from Goyville?
Huh!
Lion613
Dear Taryn, I was a member
I was a member of Bnei Akiva youth movement in fact not only was I member but I was a Madrich. Not only that but I was Sgun Chinnuch at camp in last year.
So no I am not a Habonim product by any means.
Hope that clears up any confusion you may have concerning my Jewish youth movement affiliation?
All the best.
I took a run through the
Its interesting to see that Ilan Solomons (who I most certainly do not agree with) never slings a gratuitous insult at anyone, regardless of the vicious and personal insults which are thrown at him. Despite the fact that he is probably the youngest protagonist in the debate, he behaves better than any of us: and if you were going to tell me that the abusive language and the anger in our posts (mine included) is justified by the seriousness of the topic then I’m going to tell you that the sort of language which we have employed is so counterproductive that we only make our cause look nuts.
We need to behave much, much better.
Just look at this:
Sam (1 November):
"I am afraid that if you are an example of the ignorrance in our Jewish youth, then I quake for our community. Obviously the current and popular mind-set has penetrated your cranium and I suggest you do a lot more reading and studying on the subject and do not rely on your emotional weakness to create facts in your mind."
Sam (2 November):
"You are too young to know of the murders perpetrated by these groups on innocent people"
David Hersch (2 November):
"Goodness me Ilan, you really are lacking in real knowledge. I have just come across your talkbacks and you lack greatly. Are you typical of our current crop of Jewish students? If so, may Hashem help us. You are obviously living proof of the failures of the leadership at the South African Zionist Federation and our Jewish school system and a product of an over-indulged Jewish youth…."
"What do you really know about Deir Yassin except the propaganda our enemies have obviously fed you and you have swallowed hook, line and sinker? Do you even know where it is? "
" … you are way off the mark. Do some serious reading and study.
I won't engage you as you look for equivalence and go into a whole diatribe of the nonsense you write,"
" ... please don’t wet your computer keyboard with crocodile tears…
There is no need whatsoever to ingratiate yourself to our enemies and show what a reasonable and good boy you are. Get real and acquire some courage!"
" … The rest of what you write I also find immature and wishy-washy.
Your description in my view is the usual idealistic, quixotic and shallow claptrap rolled out by the uninformed and romantically inclined ignoramuses."
" … how spoilt and indulged you are and how removed from reality you really are. Your heads are filled with romantic straw with no real knowledge and definitely no experience."
" … your generation take it for granted and wonder around and arrogance and abysmal ignorance. Shame on you all and shame on you for your shallow take on all of this."
" … but for all our sakes, disabuse yourself from the romantic nonsense you sprout."
Sam (2 November):
"Let me tell you why I take the trouble to answer you at length. It is because you need to be informed correctly, which you are not. I have seen your name and assume you are involved in SAUJS at university and what worries me is that if you are not corrected, you will spread your superficial nonsense"
Anonymous (3 November):
"Then Illan,maybe you will stop trying to be controversial, in order to impress yourself, after that you can go and live in Ashdot for a while."
"Hopefully then you will have grown and wised up, think you still need to learn to rather keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool rather than to have opened it and removed all doubt."
David Hersch (3 November):
"Ilan, I can't wait for you to grow up. Maybe then we will be spared your unfantile obfuscation, moralising, self-righteousness and maybe you will read more widely."
"It is noted how people have answered what you wrote and how you avoid doing the same. If you have now retreated from posting any more silly replies, Baruch Hashem! And thank you."
"The spread of their lies across the world endangers us everywhere, including the hallowed halls and walks of Wits, where you spread your infantile and shallow heartfelt nonsense."
Taryn Samuels (10 November):
"I have been thinking about your responses Ilan for a few days and I think you come over as an arrogant an opinionated boy."
No doubt everyone whose extracts I have blocked and copied (shocking spelling, bad grammar and all), is older than Ilan. I don’t know him from a bar of soap but if this is the best that we can do to answer him, he must see us (myself included) as a bunch of curmudgeonly (oh for g-d’s sake, go look it up), intolerant old farts who are not worth paying any attention to in the first place – exactly the reaction we should avoid.
And a merry old shavua tov to you all! I’m done here!
Lion613
http://www.myshtetl.co.za/community/israel/israelnews/sa-taxpayers-fund-pa-tune-r10m-year#comment-2982
directed malice he has been subjected to here). I respect his intellectual integrity and courage.
His views are really not marginal except within the mainstream neo-con, Jewish institutions.
It's good to see that young people from all youth movements, not just Habonim but also Netzer and Bnei Akiva (Betar probably still think 'Jordan is the Palestinian State'?) are starting to think independently on these issues.
Brett, Anyone who discusses
I am sure that Mr. Solomon's research, and serious reading does not include Tanach.
P.S. Where is "palestine"?
When will people get
Before Israel, after Israel, they want us dead and buried. It's in there religious scriptures and embodied in thier text books.
I was privaleged to hear the Chief Rabbi recount te history of the "Palestinian" conflict at a shiur during Operation Cast Lead. Only a complete and utter fool could walk away from that assuming their so-called struggle is a struggle.
Israel is simply a point of galvanisation for them. It helps them get money from Western bleeding heart liberals who feel sorry for themplay victim.
It doesnt change the truth about what they want to accomplish with all Jews the World over. How many times are people going to listen to them and fob them off as fringe extremists even when they lead large countrys and large relgious movements!!! They working hard to solve the Jewish question.
While they tell the truth plainly, and we sit cowering and lying to ourselves that it can't be true! We're the liars and while we do that more people die! They say they want Jews to get rid of Jews. The return of their mahdi or mesianic prophesies requires it (depends on ur flavour of Islam, but they all need us gone) ! They're being true to their belief and we fight that with clever lies we tell.
As for Tanach and Choni. I agree with him. Only a complete moron would be unable to realize that while we don't pay it creedence we will suffer. Time and time again throughout history it has proven to be correct, and now as we stare down the barrel of a nuke from Iran and complete genicide we still debate stupidly, like that ever saved a soul. We should pay the Koran and Hadiths creedence to, then we might understand them better
OPEN UR EYES. No mud you chuck at each other is going to resolve anything, but it all sticks.
I don't care how many titles Ilan has earned, or who heads what fancy Zionist organization, or how did what and who wrote what. The situation is worse than ever there and the threat to our existence as a people is greater than ever. Big round of applause for all those who claim titles and accomplishments here!!! Snaps for you. Yay!
We're Jews, we're equal. Stop acting like any of you are even close to what our Sages were!
The truth is not complicated. It is simple.
Lies are complicated. They build on each other. So everyone things that "palestine" is complicated. Its so not. Just go back to the start. Like a house of cards, it all falls down with the slightest prodding. You'll see every bleeding heart comment is just another lie on top of many others.
The ANC and PAC fought an armed struggle against occupiers/settlers. The Jews in Israel are not the occupiers, the PA is! How many more relics need to be found to prove our claim to the land existed generations before Muhammad was even a twinkling in his mother's eye. They say we fake history to steal from them. They teach their kids that too. The problem is everyone likes to paint it the other way around because for them to succeed Jews must be wrong and they must fail!!!!
Yawn, you miserable bunch are going to still be debating when the nukes hit. B"H the IDF takes matters a little more seriously than our local Jewry.